Suikoden V Sialeeds

Lymsleia Falenas is one of the major protagonists in Suikoden V.HistoryLymsleia is less than thrilled with the prospect of the Sacred Games because she will not be able to meet or choose the man she will marry. Her opinion of her possible husbands is equally low, especially of those who use champions as representatives in the game since her father Ferid won Arshtat's heart on his own. After Gizel Godwin wins the Princess's hand, Lymsleia is surely obliged by tradition to go through a purification rite. Peggo pop free. Soon after that with her brother and Sialeeds, Lymsleia had would travels to the East Palace to receive the blessing of the (stolen) Dawn Rune and briefly encounters Zerase, whom Lymsleia was dislikes immediately because of her impertience. The group proceeds to the holy shrine of Lunas for purification in a sacred spring, where Lymsleia had comes to realize her relationship with her brother will change as her engagement approaches and is grateful for his kindness, love, and forgiveness, even after how she looked down upon him in their childhood.During the Godwin's coup, Lymsleia, Miakis, and Galleon are unable to escape from Zahhak, Alenia, and the Nether Gate members and learn that Arshtat and Ferid are dead. Lymsleia is confined in her room and left to her sorrow.

Did you say something, Lady Sialeeds? Just thinking to myself. So, how are we going to abduct the Princess? Suikoden V (Gizel/Sialeeds). Title: Left Wanting Author/Artist: prplpen. Rating: PG-13. Warnings: oblique sexual references, vague spoilers. Word count: 461.

Though she is aware the Godwins intend to use her as a political puppet, Lymsleia agrees to be coronated as queen when Gizel threatens the safety of Miakis and her servants, reassuring Miakis that she has would been destined since birth to become Queen of Falena.After Gizel, Zahhak, and Alenia all fail to defeat the Prince, Lymsleia smugly declares that as queen, she can fight on the front lines to end the war as soon as possible to bring peace to her country, despite how she is advised otherwise. Though she speaks sincerely, Lymsleia secretly plans to provide the Prince an opportunity to capture her; her plan is successful until Sialeeds turns against the Prince and returns her niece to the Sun Palace.After the Sun Rune was returned and the war ends, Lymsleia consolidates royal power and dissolves the Senate to prevent any new Godwins or Barows from gaining power just as Sialeeds had intended. Instead of a Senate, the new queen creates a parliament with elected representatives from the towns and gives the beavers and the cave dwarves a voice in government.Trivia. The game actually keeps track of how nice you are to her. If you're not nice enough, you're locked out of one of the endings.

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A place to discuss, you guessed it, JRPGs. RPG news and discussion for Eastern and Western RPGs! Throughout the Suikoden series we see so many amazingly imperfect, morally grey, well meaning but flawed characters. One character stands out like a sore thumb in this cast of characters though: Lucretia Merces, tactician extraordinaire of Suikoden V.Throughout the game, Lucretia makes the most impressive strategical decisions of any Suikoden game over and over and she never really fails. When we first meet her we find out that she was imprisoned for being 'good' and helping the queen against the Godwins. She then threatens you by saying she will betray you if you aren't good as well. We then go through the entirety of the game with her never making a mistake, which never gives us a reason to ever feel like the stakes are very high.

She never does anything wrong, there is never any tension about her threat of betrayal at the start, and every decision she makes perfectly counters the enemy's plan. She even knows what Sialeeds is doing when her betrayal happens, ruining yet another attempt at raising the stakes by throwing in a twist.Let's compare her to Shu from Suikoden 2 who is the most similar tactician character.

Like Lucretia, he doesn't really make mistakes and tends to have a know-it-all demeanor about him. However, there are differences. There are things that Shu did not have a plan for or could not deal with. When Luca Blight was attacking the castle, Shu had nothing. The stakes were high and we as players could feel the hopelessness because even our great strategist had nothing against Luca's much larger army and insane strength.

In the end it wasn't Shu who had any strategy, we were saved by Jowy and Leon Silverburg who had their own plans. Compare this to losing your castle in Suikoden V. Lucretia had it all planned exactly. You'd retreat temporarily and hide in the dwarf mines while building up more forces, then when the time came you'd use the dam to raise the water level and surround the castle, trapping the enemy in. This was all planned from the start, there was no feeling of hopelessness or fear from losing your HQ. It was all just another thing that Lucretia had planned out, so it didn't raise the stakes at all. Also in Suikoden 2, Shu never planned to lose Greenhill, it wasn't all his doing to get Theresa out of Greenhill, Shu didn't plan for Gorudo to be an ass, he didn't plan for the knights to betray Gorudo and join you anyway, he didn't plan for Tinto to be under attack and you to go in and save the day to secure an alliance.

That was done by Riou or the player. Riou was the one who helped Miklotov, who was able to get Theresa out of Greenhill, who defeated Neclord. In Suikoden 5, the prince ends up just being a pawn of Lucretia, doing whatever she says to do because again, she does no wrong.Another key difference between the two was that by the end of the game, Shu had at least had some character growth shown.

Despite being very competent, he had flaws that were discussed and he learned from. He learns that 'even a futile gesture can be worth something' from Apple and puts his own life in danger in order to help win the war, even fully expecting to die. Lucretia, on the other hand, has no character growth throughout the entire game. She is the exact same person from the moment you meet her till the moment she is talking to Sialeeds at the end.

She never learns anything, never takes anything anyone else says to heart, and never grows as a person, because the narrative never demands it of her.Lucretia's infallibility ends up hurting the narrative of Suikoden 5 because it ruins one of the central themes of Suikoden, character growth and learning from others. It also removes any sense of urgency or anxiety from the player because not once is there a moment where it feels like she doesn't have things under control.How does this get fixed? Three answers going from simplest and probably worst to most complex and probably best.Give her some damn character development - At the bare minimum give her a moment to admit she was wrong or acknowledge how her actions hurt others.

This is set up perfectly when she tells Lelei never to apologize about what happened because it shows weakness. In a great moment of character development and a more satisfying death to Sialeeds, Lucretia could have apologized to Sialeeds for everything that happened at the end. She wouldn't even need to say she was wrong. Lucretia could have simply acknowledged and apologized for the pain of Sialeeds seeing her sister go mad from the sun rune, seeing her family killed, and having her home taken away from her. This would have shown that Lucretia has learned that vulnerability is NOT a flaw and given a more deservedly intimate death scene to Sialeeds instead of some snarky comments right before her death.Lucretia is killed.

Going off the last idea, Lucretia dying could be a great moment of character growth (similar to Shu willing to sacrifice himself) for her and another character. It could come from her making a mistake because of her dogmatic beliefs and learning too late that she was wrong. This would also give another character (such as Lelei) a chance to prove their worth, learn from Lucretia's mistake, and use that learning to win the decisive battle. Often in fantasy, the mentor needs to die in order for the mentee to truly show their worth (Star Wars, LOTR, etc.).Remove her from the game completely. Her role could go to 2 or more other characters.

Sialeeds could serve as the strategist for the first half of the game. Sialeeds shows how capable of this task she is throughout the game. This would ultimately add more weight and purpose to her betrayal as well.

Sialeeds' true goal throughout the game is to destroy the nobility, it would be the same here. She uses her position as strategist in the Prince's army to accomplish this goal. However, Lym throws a wrench in this plan when she takes to the battlefield herself in an attempt to reunite with her brother and end the war.

Sialeeds knows this will just set things back to the way they were before, and she panics because she hasn't accomplished her goal, so she ends up betraying the prince. Her motivations are more clear in this scenario, and the betrayal is more of a blow because you don't have Lucretia there to solve everything instantly. It also gives her more of a chance of redemption at the end of the game when she ultimately aids you again after she accomplishes her goal. After Sialeeds' betrayal it again gives another character a chance to show their worth (Miakis maybe) and show their own ability to take this role.Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk about Lucretia. Not trying to downplay Lady Merces that i also think is a boss, but.​Let's compare her to Shu from Suikoden 2 who is the most similar tactician character. Like Lucretia, he doesn't really make mistakes and tends to have a know-it-all demeanor about him.

However, there are differences. There are things that Shu did not have a plan for or could not deal with. When Luca Blight was attacking the castle, Shu had nothing. The stakes were high and we as players could feel the hopelessness because even our great strategist had nothing against Luca's much larger army and insane strength. In the end it wasn't Shu who had any strategy, we were saved by Jowy and Leon Silverburg who had their own plans​Bud, Shu was against Luca fucking Blight, with Harmonia and Yuber to support (and not needed at all).Armes and Godwins vs Prince's faction was balanced, Luca vs All wasn't, because of Luca lolThe entire army had to retreat after a failed confrontation with him.If even the enemies (so, Leon) had to bake a plan with allied forces to take down that monster (multiple waves of archers and strongest groups led by Flik, Viktor and Riou.

Still alive), you have to realize how pointless is to compare Merces with Shu, from this perspective.​Furthermore, you're comparing the narrative of a 15 hours of plot of psx era against 45 hours of plot in the ps2 era, i think that is a bit unfair.Mathiu was recognized as one of the best strategists ever, but looking at his 'plans' in S1, you'll most likely think 'meh, i can do it better'.Sanchez approves. It's a problem with the game that requires no comparison, but looks even worse when you consider the flaws of the strategists from older titles.You said it.My only real objection was about Lucretia's strategies destroying enemies efforts, because before digging into her character for ruining the game, we have to consider that the game was already ruined by the weakness of the enemies.

Lucretia's unflawed mastermind is only a surplus, the result of playing against noobs.It wasn't a challenge from the very begin, that's why i was trying to explain to OP how pointless are the comparisons. But it didn't go very well. Armes and Godwins vs Prince's faction was balanced, Luca vs All wasn't, because of Luca lolThe entire army had to retreat after a failed confrontation with him.If even the enemies (so, Leon) had to bake a plan with allied forces to take down that monster (multiple waves of archers and strongest groups led by Flik, Viktor and Riou. Still alive), you have to realize how pointless is to compare Merces with Shu, from this perspective.That's exactly what I said though?

I'm not sure how this is a counterpoint when you just reiterated why Lucretia hurts Suikoden 5. Luca was a real threat as I said. Why was he a real threat? Because we didn't have some genius infallible character to counter every move he made. It took all of your own forces plus the betrayal of his own. If it was Lucretia it would have simply gone down with Lucretia planning for and somehow knowing the night attack would happen and she would be right and we'd defeat Luca.

There would be no real sense of doom. The reason the Godwins never feel like a threat is because of Lucretia. She is never wrong, she never messes up, she always has the advantage on the opponent. THAT is why the Godwins seem so useless compared to Luca and that is why she hurts this story.

Get rid of her and make the enemies actually able to show they're capable. That's why i'm saying that your comparison is pointless.First of all, you're assuming that Godwin's was never a real threat because Lucretia's infallible mastermind, but i would argue about Godwin's being weak from the very begin: Gizel, the bald, the fucked up wannabe clown, the 2 ex queen knights + Armes vs Luca, Leon, Jowy, Seed, Culgan, Yuber, Sasarai.(the overall forces before Ceras castle invasion / Luca's raid)Quite a difference, don't you agree? Where's the challenge in the first place?Then we also have to consider the situation:​. The setting point for Highland was the victory against the allied forces; the latter just failed to strike down the 'mad prince', but is not about strategy is about Luca being outstanding.That's when they all really realized 'how' strong Luca is, and with: South Window, Radat, KusKus, Coronet occupied - you have no place to retreat, except for Lakewest and from there, Two River, connect directly to Greenhill's area, under Highland's control. Unlike in S5 who had the dwarves underground passages, in S2 there's just no place to retreat. Ceras Lake Castle vs North Window Castle. Why Lucretia was able to decimate the enemies?

Exactly, because Ceras Lake Castle is a fucking water trap! Unlike NWC that has nothing!. Luca is wild, just like in the case of the Mercernary Fort, he didn't give a break and has attacked almost immediatly with his White Wolf Army. Nothing that can be compared to Godwin's. You realize this is a story written by people and not real life events right?

I'm merely pointing out ways to improve the storytelling. Luca having these advantages was WRITTEN that way. Godwins being shit was WRITTEN that way.

Ceras lake being a water trap is WRITTEN that way.Unlike in S5 who had the dwarves underground passages, in S2 there's just no place to retreat.Again, it was WRITTEN this way. I'm pointing out flaws in the writing and storytelling of Suikoden 5 and even gave ways to improve it. Meanwhile, you're here pretending that this all actually happened and that the dwarves having underground tunnels wasn't just a convenient plot device but an actual historical fact that can't be changed. You just seem to think that I'm criticizing lucretia herself. I'm criticizing the way her character was written and placed in the story.

The comparison to Shu is completely valid because he is another very similar character in the same series but written slightly differently. Shu adds to the overall story of Suikoden 2. Lucretia dominates and takes away from the story of Suikoden 5. I'm not comparing their individual wars or enemies, so it's odd that you're claiming I can't compare them based on those factors. Wu Yong still makes mistakes though, and I don't remember Lucretia ever fouling up.I'm still in the middle of reading Outlaws of the Marsh and just got past the part where Wu Yong has a letter forged to help Song Jiang (Tenkai star) escape execution and realizes only just after Dai Zong (the Stallion character) is dispatched with the forgery that he made mistakes that marked the forgery as obvious, and indeed it is immediately detected so then both Song Jiang and Dai Zong are both slated for execution.Maybe Wu Yong will change when I get to parts 3 and 4 though. Yeah, I'd be very disappointed if any character was a total copy of their inspiration, but I think Lucretia's failing is that while she's unique as a Suikoden strategist, the writing doesn't give her a chance to be so in an interesting way.

Suikoden I-III, I often felt like I was really the underdog against a stronger power because of the story even if in terms of battle outcomes I wiped the floor with the enemy. Suikoden V, it didn't even feel like the war was fair because both mechanically and narratively the heroes didn't feel challenged, and morally the story plays out like a fairy tale in its black-and-white simplicity. Not giving Lucretia any technical or moral challenges to overcome, or questionable decisions for other heroes to confront her about, is a big part of that.Personally, I kept expecting her to pull an Albert on me and have something spectacularly, callously self-interested up her sleeve on my first play through. Like maybe at the 11th hour she decides she's bored with how easy winning has been and switches sides just to challenge her skills, figuring even if she doesn't agree with them she could manipulate things to go her way anyway. Interesting concepts you have. Yes, V does have less morally questionable moments, and more of a tale of retribution, with added clash of ideals(similar to II).I don’t get why people would expect her to pull a twist. I think some might have taken her rhetorical “I will betray you too.” too literally.

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She’s not a selfish or self-serving character. In fact she resembles Mathiu and Apple, in the way that she would unwaveringly make necessary sacrifice to achieve a greater good.Her story and characterization began long before the main story of V, she even witnessed the rampage of True Fire in Grassland, very possibly her homeland. This might have convicted her to prevent the misuse of Sun Rune at any cost.At a glance, it does seem like V gave her little to no challenge, which, relatively, just might be the case. (SI wasn’t challenging story-wise either. Frankly)But looking at it closely, “her” success was a combination of her outstanding plannings, the hero and the army’s competence, and the people’s support. All of them worked together to turn predicaments into favorable circumstances. Should any one part failed, it would have been disastrous.For instance, choosing to defend the castle would have resulted in huge casualty, Roy’s death, and missing out 7 SoD.I think her confident and nonchalant demeanor might have fooled us into thinking it was an easy war.So yes, story-wise there were less dire situations than II or III, but she’s in no way any less spectacular than the other three strategists.

Wouldn’t you say?. I don't remember recalling consciously how she said you would betray you, it was just that she seemed too good to be true. It's that RPG instinct that a character who is too nice at first probably isn't really, or a character too powerful when they join is going to run off with your good gear and be unplayable for 90% of the game because they a) are 'busy' b) die c) are evil all along, curse their sudden but inevitable betrayal.I still don't think she's as good a character as the other strategists, precisely because no one part of her plan ever fails, and there's not much internal tension for her or external tension between Lucretia and other characters, and so her character isn't as well developed. I still liked Suikoden V a lot, but Lucretia as not one of the highlight characters for me. The source material and inspirations are not a credible defense of a poorly written or flawed portion of the work.Mary Sues are usually beautiful, talented, have few or no flaws, and are loved by everyone.That describes Lucretia to a T, doesn't it?

She's too perfect. Her characterization is a problem with the game that detracts from any possible tension in the plot by neutering the foe.Even in trying to defend her based on the material she was sourced from you admit that the figure that was her inspiration was actually more flawed than she is. She's has no flaws, shows barely any humanity (see OP's point #1), no growth, and makes every plot point land like a wet fart. The protagonist is essentially her errand boy. It's just not interesting.You can write her to overestimate her own abilities (hubris), or have a rival that can give her a run for her money - there are a lot of ways to make her interesting while still paying homage to the historic figure who inspired her.